Unexpected Snap Understeer.

"Berang" (berang)
11/27/2015 at 11:43 • Filed to: skids, understeer

Successful recovery from an unexpected skid. I thought about not posting this because of the embarrassment factor, but then thought it might be somewhat educational.

I’ve come around this corner many times in the rain and never experienced this before so I was caught off guard. Usually when this car plows it’s because it’s getting too much throttle. This instance was different as the car was coasting and the brakes lightly on. Also as you can see this happened at an extremely low speed. Two things people do instinctively in a front wheel skid (and which I did here momentarily) are to get on the brakes and steer harder - neither action will stop a skid, and often can only make it worse.

You can see that as soon the brakes are released (watch the foot) the car begins going where I’ve pointed it. This seems counter intuitive in the moment, but if the front wheels aren’t rolling they can’t steer. If the car begins to plow and you get on the brakes you only make the front wheels less effective at doing their job if a wheel locks up. The important thing is don’t panic and slam on the brakes!

There are certain situations (like in snow) where momentarily getting on the brakes to transfer weight to the front wheels can help - but again if the front wheels stop turning, they won’t steer the car.

I saw several accidents yesterday and was lucky not to have caused another. Stay safe everybody.

PS: After this I pulled over and lowered the front tire pressure to the factory setting. A lot of service places and owners will over inflate tires, which is fine for getting good gas mileage, but not always good for handling.

PPS: Yes, I know what ABS is. No, this car does not have it.

DISCUSSION (100)

Tareim - V8 powered > Berang
11/27/2015 at 11:50

yeah that’s not snap understeer, that’s just understeer. Luckily no one was coming the other way when it happened, glad there was no accident caused

EL_ULY > Berang
11/27/2015 at 11:51

2 hands on the wheel, always!

Good job on correcting once traction was had again

davedave1111 > Berang
11/27/2015 at 11:52

Dear me, unexpected doesn’t begin to describe it. How on earth did it fail to take the corner at that speed? Did you have the tyres inflated so hard that they balloned out and you only had the centre touching the road?

Berang > Tareim - V8 powered
11/27/2015 at 11:53

The snap part was tongue in cheek. As it was obviously just a front wheel skid.

yitznewton > Berang
11/27/2015 at 11:54

Is that three on the tree?! Nice... it’s on my bucket list next to Model T Ford.

Berang > davedave1111
11/27/2015 at 11:56

Possibly a greasy spot, and the curve being slightly off camber. I usually run the tires at 30lbs and the factory recommended 24lbs - which doesn’t seem like a big difference to me (when I worked at a dealer they would often inflate tires to 35lbs regardless of what the manual said) and in most usual conditions it wouldn’t be.

Berang > yitznewton
11/27/2015 at 11:58

Four on the tree!

Berang > EL_ULY
11/27/2015 at 12:05

Thanks.

12 years of living with Colorado snow pays off, but I still didn’t see this one coming.

FazeRacer > davedave1111
11/27/2015 at 12:06

Probably crappy tires. Never cheap out on tires.

Jarrett - [BRZ Boi] > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:14

I had something similar happen to me in The Answer. I was in a bit of disbelief. Not sure what I could have done to prevent it!

davedave1111 > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:16

That’s a big difference on a light car with narrow tyres. I’m about as far from a suspension expert as you can get, but I think there are problems with the required tyre deformation when you go around a corner with them that hard.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:16

Tightening blind downhill curve... this is my nightmare situation, except with less washboard dirt and more wet asphalt.

davedave1111 > FazeRacer
11/27/2015 at 12:19

Ah, but ditchfinders are so much fun. Works just as well as doughnuts on each corner, and it won’t get you pulled over and fined...

Berang > davedave1111
11/27/2015 at 12:20

One thing I do know is that the contact patch gets shorter (front to back) the more the tire is inflated. Tires have to be excessively inflated to reduce the contact patch side to side and cause uneven wear of the tread. Over inflation is not usually visible until that point though.

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:21

When I was 17 I was bombing around some twisties in my Rabbit GTI at perhaps 3 times the posted speed limit. I came over a crest only to find a 90 degree left turn. I slammed on the brakes, locked up all four and plowed straight ahead, and expected to fly off the road and into the bay.

I don’t know what training made me think of it, but for a split second I released then reapplied the brakes. This was enough traction to pull me through that curve and keep me on the road. I pulled over, sat down in the dirt and thanked my lucky stars that I hadn't killed myself. That teenage sense of invulnerability disappeared at that point, and I'm proud to say I haven't done anything that stupid since.

davedave1111 > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:22

There’s definitely that, but something else too, I think. Problem is I can’t remember the name of the bit that causes it, so I can’t look it up. My brain’s saying castor angle, but Google’s saying no.

JeepJeremy > Berang
11/27/2015 at 12:28

Nice recovery!

Berang > JeepJeremy
11/27/2015 at 12:44

Thanks.

Any recovery that doesn’t involve destroying things is always nice.

Dsscats > Berang
11/27/2015 at 13:07

Just overcooked it a little.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Berang
11/27/2015 at 13:14

Why were you expecting me?

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Tareim - V8 powered
11/27/2015 at 13:17

Correct. I’m the only Snapundersteer that matters

Tohru > SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman
11/27/2015 at 18:25

I was expecting you for dinner last night, and you never showed up. Why must you break my heart so?

Berang > davedave1111
11/27/2015 at 19:02

Today I checked the rears and found the outside (driver’s side) tire was considerably under inflated, which may also have contributed.

SnapUndersteer, Italian Spiderman > Tohru
11/27/2015 at 19:31

I’ll try to do better

Nauraushaun > Berang
11/28/2015 at 06:48

Love it. I get so much traction loss and oversteer and such. Especially on certain parts of road, like an off-camber roundabout near me. Sometimes I’m sort of semi-trying to get it, but it still makes me wonder how normal people (who don’t understand over/understeer) don’t get in these situations more often.

Spridget > Berang
11/30/2015 at 17:44

Slightly irrelevant, but I saw this on JNC today. Isn’t this your car?

Kinja'd!!!

Berang > Spridget
11/30/2015 at 19:43

yup, way back when I owned it.

gregoryw > Berang
12/02/2015 at 14:53

I like how you kept adding steering in a skid to demonstrate bad driving to everyone.

AntiLag > EL_ULY
12/02/2015 at 14:58

easier to accomplish with a column shifter though

steven5737 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:03

Berang, is that Redbud Trl in Austin?

mysimpleopinion > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:07

When you understeer like that the worst thing you can do is dial in more steering angle.

MHunter905 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:08

Maybe you need new tires? I think you would not have experienced understeer at such a low speed with good tires. Unless they were performance tires, in which case you shouldn’t drive in the rain or cold with them. (honest post, no sarcasm...pls don’t take the wrong way)

mikemikemotorbike > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:09

No wonder you under steered with all that gravel in the engine.

PatBateman > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:10

FP’d. Congrats!

RIP your notifications.

plainnottoasted > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing.
12/02/2015 at 15:11

When I was 16, I was driving my 76 Scirocco, down this hill http://bit.ly/1lXYD47 , too fast, in the rain travelling the same direction as the silver Honda.

I noticed a car waiting to turn left into driveway at the bottom of the hill, hit my brakes, immediately slid, absolutely no way to stop. Can’t go around, because the car was stopped, for another car coming down the hill the opposite direction.

Last second, I let her go and nipped around the right hand side, into the weird offset flat junction and a nearly collided with the oncoming car making a last minute left hand turn across my bow.

So close, could have been such a disaster.

1970camaroRS > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:12

Did the same thing slowing down and turning into a parkinglot yesterday. Ice at the top of a crest near the apex of the turn. I plowed. Good thing no one else was there.

Quattroman > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:13

I think this question needs to be addressed....What the hell kind of death trap car are you driving?! Late model Bimmer?

Sam-that-was-fun! > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:13

what kind of a car is it?

BrianMadigan > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:15

The problem is you don’t have AWD with Torsen diffs. Get an Audi.

There is a limit where your tires can’t make a smaller radius turn at a certain speed and level of grep. If you turn the wheels more, you end up sliding with the treads sideways. If you keep them pointed in the same direction, apply some handbrake to lock up the rears momentarily, you might get some of that traction back. Instinctively applying handbrake is not a good idea for most driving situations though.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:16

Well now that this has been FP’d here come the keyboard warriors trying to tell you about car control.

AdmiralAkbar > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:19

I also got bit by factory tire pressure - the tires/wheels were shipped to me at 48PSI! I hit a pothole on the road and the fucker popped. We make jokes here about always checking your tire pressure (use a digital guage, bro!), but it’s true.

SVTRaptor > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:19

So an additional 25% tire pressure doesn’t seem like a lot? I’m no expert but that seems like a lot over the factory setting on such a light car!

That being said, nice (lucky) recovery! Glad you are not in intimate contact with someone else’s bumper!

Naughty0ne2Pointoh > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:19

Kinja'd!!!

No brake application = Fail

Heavy braking = Fail

Tap/pump braking = Correct

This isn’t some great mystery. You can also regain rolling traction by steering properly.

PS, high tire psi helps in snow and low helps in ice. Or better yet, quit buying shitty tires.

2 Wheels awesome! > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:19

same situation once sent my base model 2001 firebird 3800 v6 into a ditch and head on into a culvert...

When the front skids in the rain on hard turns in my FWD Cruze I just keep the wheels pointed where I want to go and lift a little on the throttle until catches.

mxer1 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:21

Snap understeer looks awfully a lot like regular understeer.

Berang > SVTRaptor
12/02/2015 at 15:21

It does seem like a lot. But in my ignorance, I had never thought to check what factory pressures were, and assumed 30 to be about right.

Berang > mxer1
12/02/2015 at 15:22

Kinja'd!!!

UnknownPerson2 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:25

I was waiting for the rear end to snap around after front tire traction was regained

Berang > Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap
12/02/2015 at 15:26

I’ll invite them to try out a front wheel drive car that was designed in 1960.

mk1gti > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:26

Scaninavian Flick maybe?

You’re such a badass. . .

Chris11LE > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:26

“PS: After this I pulled over and lowered the front tire pressure to the factory setting.”

Whoa whoa whoa there.....make sure your gauge is REALLY accurate because I’ve seen with my own eyes the issues that can be caused if your tires are UNDERinflated by just 1.5 psi.

clutchshiftington > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:26

Wot? Snow doesn’t have enough traction to induce any useful amount of weight transfer.

If you’re understeering towards a ditch in the snow, either give a dab of handbrake or, in a RWD car with a working LSD, give a bit of throttle... either one will rotate the car.

Berang > AdmiralAkbar
12/02/2015 at 15:27

Holy crap.

Berang > clutchshiftington
12/02/2015 at 15:31

Perhaps, if you were driving on ice, or snow packed down until its become an ice like substance. But for your average “just snowed last night”conditions, yes, it will work. Lived 12 years in Colorado, drove through lots of the stuff.

Hauchipato > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:31

I think the actual response kind of depends on the car nowadays. The old Beetle without ABS - yes you have to release the brakes for the front tires to start rolling again. However in most modern cars the ABS would/should have kicked in to prevent the lock up in the first place.

CommonSenseIsn't > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:31

Years ago, I was leaving my grandmother’s house, with my father in the passenger seat. We got to the stop sign at the bottom of the small hill she lived on, and a Sheriff’s Deputy went by on the road it T’d into. he put on his yellow rotating lights as he went by, we both wondered why.

I turned left onto the road (same direction as the Deputy) and hit a patch of black ice. I am proud to day that I steered into the skid, while I re-engaged the clutch, got the car righted, and fed small-input into the rear wheels using the “grey area” in the clutch. Car back on it’s way, total time maybe one second.

About a mile down the road, my father turns to me and says “that was nicely done.”

BEST. COMPLIMENT. EVAR.

NVSmythe > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:31

Factory pressures are listed inside the driver door jamb.

It’s a FMVSS regulation.

SOCdriver > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:31

In all my time driving FWD I have never had this happen like that. I have lost traction in the snow, but like you said some braking helped before I got back on the throttle. You handled that great, hope I can if it ever happens to me.

Daily Drives a Dragon - One Last Lap > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:31

Sounds fun!

Berang > NVSmythe
12/02/2015 at 15:32

This car was made in 1973. They’re hidden on a tag inside the glovebox.

kis_ev > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:37

I’ve been there more than once in my Mk4 Vw Golf TDI with 28mm rear-sway bar. I haven’t experienced understeer snap since adding a Torsen differential, but I haven’t had the time or the space to test the new limits. Yep, braking and turning does not help the situation, but gradually slowing down then feeding the accelerator can restore traction and direction.

TchmilFan > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:38

No, that’ll be the washing instructions. No tumble dry. Do not dry clean. Drive faster cars separately.

Chteelers > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:41

So what was ultimately the cause? I would think that you’d felt low traction in other corners since this happened at such a low speed. Was there oil/gravel on the road? I don’t see a random river across the road, which is often the culprit. I ask for edification. Thanks for posting!

edit: on second look, it looks like there might be a slight river crossing from left to right into this downhill corner. That, combined with downhill braking and tight turn, and possibly bad tires... just speculating. Glad it was just a close call. A few seconds later and that next car would be lucky to miss you.

Berang > Chteelers
12/02/2015 at 15:45

The curve is off camber, and of tightening radius, I would think there may have been some gravel or sand present as it often gets covered in water during heavy rains. Or it may have been a greasy patch. That combined with tires set at too high pressure.

Greg_Ramsey > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:47

Probably wouldn’t happen in an ABS equipped car, right? The front wheels would stay spinning.

Marioshi > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:47

I feel like anti locks brakes would have made your instinctual way of responding the right way of responding, am I right? Cuz anti lock brakes would keep the wheels turning therefor retaining steering input.

iceman > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:50

Ebrake is your friend doriftooo

Berang > MHunter905
12/02/2015 at 15:52

tread is fine. Just too much air in them, an off camber curve, and probably a patch of grease or gravel.

Berang > Greg_Ramsey
12/02/2015 at 15:53

More than likely, or they’d spin half the time. If you were speeding you could easily still plow across the road and into the ditch.

Dake > Berang
12/02/2015 at 15:58

I always thought this was the biggest argument against the “safety” factor of designing in understeer. It takes presence of mind and discipline to take your foot off the brakes when your car starts plowing straight off a curve. Most people do not have this ability and they will stand on the brake pedal until they finally hit whatever is directly ahead.

In this day and age with decent traction control, it seems like it might be safer to start dialing out understeer tendencies.

theparttimegoon > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing.
12/02/2015 at 16:04

As a 21 year old with a Ducati, been there. Not dead yet though, therefore am still invincible.

Berang > Dake
12/02/2015 at 16:04

The idea with understeer is that it caters to one’s instinct to steer harder - if the car is turning wide, you just steer a little more, and problem solved.

But that is not in a skidding situation, where turning more does nothing. From that angle one may argue that understeer encourages bad driving habits, since it reinforces the habit of turning tighter.

btb2089 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:18

Redbud Trail in ATX? thought i recognized that corner.

NYankee1927 > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:18

I think you did a damn fine job of keeping your wits about you and correcting the situation as soon as you realized what was happening. Most people would have just watched their car straight into the rock with the steering cranked and braked locked!

JCAlan > EL_ULY
12/02/2015 at 16:21

Agree! The over-correction into that giant rock would have sucked.

JCAlan > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:28

For those of us that don’t get it, can you explain the difference?

Berang > NYankee1927
12/02/2015 at 16:29

True. There’s going to be a lot of people telling me how to drive, but of course they weren’t in the situation and didn’t have a split second to react. The car stayed on the road and nobody was hurt, so it’s a success in my book.

Kumicho > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
12/02/2015 at 16:32

The *only* time I spun my XJ was in ~6” of unplowed snow and that exact scenario... A tightening downhill curve, although in that case it was a veeeeeeeeeeery looooooooong oversteer that I couldn’t correct even with countersteering and application of the throttle. THankfully there was nobody coming and I just pulled out of the snowbank and went on my way...

Berang > JCAlan
12/02/2015 at 16:35

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/question-would…

ChickenMcBooty > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:42

Which 1970’s British, French or Italian car were you driving?

Berang > ChickenMcBooty
12/02/2015 at 16:43

It’s a saab.

Cheesewhiz > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing.
12/02/2015 at 16:47

Same thing here: Same Rabbit GTI, same lockup, same brake double-pump, same 17 year old doofus who lived to comment on it...

My brother ended up upside down in a river in his friend’s Rabbit GTI. Those little things were just made for bad judgement.

ChickenMcBooty > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:49

Oh, one of my all-time favorite brands. A Saab 99 I’m guessing?

afgiubadfiubg > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:49

I drive that road fairly often. That corner is always hairy, especially in the rain.

TxBrumski > Berang
12/02/2015 at 16:51

Is that the right-hander on Redbud trail going down to the RBI park?

Berang > ChickenMcBooty
12/02/2015 at 16:56

96.

Berang > afgiubadfiubg
12/02/2015 at 16:57

I’m usually going the other direction, but haven’t had trouble going this way before.

ChickenMcBooty > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:03

Wow! Real old-school. Nice. Excellent cool, calm recovery BTW

N@tedog > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:12

Here is some snap understeer for you.

BeaterGT > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:24

You didn’t say in the article but what condition are those tires in tread-wise?

Berang > BeaterGT
12/02/2015 at 17:25

Plenty of tread.

Cammmy > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:28

When I was about 17, 3 of my mates pushed me to take them for a hoon in my first car (Pug 405 Mi16x4). Wasn’t too keen driving spiritidly 4 up, but did anyway (17 remember?). Hooning away on an uber twisty back road come up to a 90 degree left hander way too quick, on the brakes, find myself with 4 wheels locked up and a car heading straight into the embankment. At this point I went into some kind of slow motion thought process which went like “shit, shit, shit, think! You know this car by now! Do something!” 90 degrees left hand lock, off brake, on throttle, car saved. Tyres and underwear both replaced not long afterwards. Closest I’ve been to crashing a car. I still drive spiritedly but definitely listen to my inner voice a bit more.

Thunder-Wallace > Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing.
12/02/2015 at 17:44

These kind of stories are why I think buying kids powerful cars is bonkers. I almost went to my death when I discovered what understeer was (So that’s what all those car magazines were talking about!) when I was 18 in my first ‘fast’ car, an old ‘91 Prelude Si with 140 on tap. I plowed off the road to my almost death on an increasing radius turn on a mountain road. Fortunately, the previous winter, my dad made me take a snow driving course where I had practiced using tiny brake inputs to regain traction and that slamming on the brakes is bad. It may not have been snow, but it worked well enough for me to regain control before running out of pavement and going over the hillside. I pulled over, got a little nauseous, and thanked God. Like you, teenage invincibility was gone.

Brent > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:45

So if the car did have ABS, would you still stay away from the brakes or is braking ok since the fronts won't lock?

BeaterGT > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:51

Damn, that’s crazy. Doesn’t look like you’re going over 15 mph.

Drive Like Shit > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:52

Living in a winter climate, driving a car with no T/C or ABS you’ll become scary familiar with these situations in no time. Also still greyed out thanks to kinja.

Ganthrithor > Berang
12/02/2015 at 17:57

What the hell? How do you get any -steer at 10 mph? Have you fitted Barbie-Jeep polyurethane tyres to your car? If I were you I would not drive a car on tyres that cause the brakes to lock up under 0.02G of acceleration... That’s the slowest speed skid I have ever seen that didn’t involve ice or wet, polished concrete. I’ve watched the video like 20 times now and I’m still shocked every time I hear those tyres start to scrub...

Berang > Brent
12/02/2015 at 18:01

Personally I would stay off them. ABS will keep the wheels from locking if you jam down on the brakes, but you should avoid slamming the brakes on in the first place.

But I’m not an expert, that’s just my take on it.

Berang > Ganthrithor
12/02/2015 at 18:05

I think it was a simple matter of overinflated tires, water, off camber curve, and probably a patch of grease or gravel to initiate the skid. These cars also lack a proportioning valve.

Ganthrithor > Berang
12/02/2015 at 18:09

That’s a huge fucking difference. Definitely use the mfr recommended pressure unless you’re after absolutely optimal grip and using some sort of empirical procedure to determine the ideal pressure (E.G.: chalking tyres and using a pyrometer to get maximum grip while on track / at autox). Even when you’re chasing the perfect number like that, it usually ends up being within a pound or two of the manufacturer’s number. Six PSI is a massive difference and would totally explain why your car has zero grip.